Counting objects - Revision history

Thomas: /* More thinking */

2024-01-12T13:40:07Z

More thinking

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:40, 12 January 2024
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	: ''or perhaps even'' three PART month PART holiday.		: ''or perhaps even'' three PART month PART holiday.
	In all of these, the PART signals that the ''three'' must be read as a number, because ''March PART holiday'' makes no sense.		In all of these, the PART signals that the ''three'' must be read as a number, because ''March PART holiday'' makes no sense.

			We should also use the partitive without counters, e.g.:
			: three PART month
			: three PART beer

Thomas: /* More thinking */

2024-01-12T13:38:28Z

More thinking

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:38, 12 January 2024
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	I guess a partitive article should fix it. The examples above show that		I guess a partitive article should fix it. The examples above show that
	: three bottle PART beer		: three bottle PART beer
	would be an extremely widespread way to express this, and we ~~should~~ do weirdness without very good reason.		would be an extremely widespread way to express this, and we shouldn't do weirdness without very good reason.

	So a three month holiday must be		So a three month holiday must be

Thomas at 13:38, 12 January 2024

2024-01-12T13:38:07Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:38, 12 January 2024
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	On the other hand, "三月の休暇" (san-gatsu no kyūka) means "a holiday in March." In this case, "三月" (san-gatsu) refers to the month of March (the third month of the year).		On the other hand, "三月の休暇" (san-gatsu no kyūka) means "a holiday in March." In this case, "三月" (san-gatsu) refers to the month of March (the third month of the year).
	The "ヶ" (ka) in "三ヶ月" is a key element that transforms the numeral "三" (three) into a duration, rather than a reference to the ordinal position of a month. This distinction is a great example of how small particles and counters in Japanese can significantly alter the meaning of phrases.		The "ヶ" (ka) in "三ヶ月" is a key element that transforms the numeral "三" (three) into a duration, rather than a reference to the ordinal position of a month. This distinction is a great example of how small particles and counters in Japanese can significantly alter the meaning of phrases.

			== More thinking ==

			I guess a partitive article should fix it. The examples above show that
			: three bottle PART beer
			would be an extremely widespread way to express this, and we should do weirdness without very good reason.

			So a three month holiday must be
			: three month PART holiday
			: ''or'' holiday ADJ three PART month
			: ''or perhaps even'' three PART month PART holiday.
			In all of these, the PART signals that the ''three'' must be read as a number, because ''March PART holiday'' makes no sense.

Thomas at 13:32, 12 January 2024

2024-01-12T13:32:26Z

Show changes

Thomas: Created page with "Some languages simply combine numeral + object: : three beer The problem with this is that it makes it impossible to use numbers in compounds, e.g.: : three month Does this mean ''three months'' or ''March''? On balance, I think being able to use numbers in compounds is more important than being able to use numbers without connectors. So we need to say something like: : three GEN beer : beer ADJ three (I'm really not sure what the head and dependent are meant to be..."

2024-01-12T10:07:45Z

Created page with "Some languages simply combine numeral + object: : three beer The problem with this is that it makes it impossible to use numbers in compounds, e.g.: : three month Does this mean ''three months'' or ''March''? On balance, I think being able to use numbers in compounds is more important than being able to use numbers without connectors. So we need to say something like: : three GEN beer : beer ADJ three (I'm really not sure what the head and dependent are meant to be..."

New page

Some languages simply combine numeral + object:
: three beer

The problem with this is that it makes it impossible to use numbers in compounds, e.g.:
: three month

Does this mean ''three months'' or ''March''?

On balance, I think being able to use numbers in compounds is more important than being able to use numbers without connectors.

So we need to say something like:
: three GEN beer
: beer ADJ three

(I'm really not sure what the head and dependent are meant to be here. It requires some thought.)

Then there's the case of using counters, like ''three bottles of beer''. I guess the following could work:
: three bottle GEN beer

Grammatically speaking, it means that ''three bottle'' is a compound. This isn't a problem if the counters are well-defined, but how would you say ''a three-month holiday''?
: three month GEN holiday
: holiday ADJ three month
: holiday ADJ three GEN month
It's getting confusing, to be honest. The first one could mean "March of holiday" (which is nonsensical, but not necessarily to beginning learners), the second one could definitely mean "the March holiday", and the last one could potentially be read as "the month's third holiday".

We need a structure that always works, so perhaps we need a new particle so that we can say:
: three CNT beer
: three bottle CNT beer (''or'' three CNT bottle CNT beer?)
: holiday ADJ three CNT month

It's still a bit confusing.